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I have heard. I think that there is every reason to try other measures than enlarging our gaol to get rid of the criminal class. About twelve months ago I mentioned that I thought gaol extension was the last thing we should con- sider. I should be glad when we next meet to state more distinctly how I support those objec tions, and I hope you will allow me in the mean- time simply to stato that I hold objections to to the proposals that have been made.
Hon. P. BYRIE-Your Excellency, like the hon, member who has just spoken, I was not aware that this matter was to be brought forward to-day. I must certainly say my views are en- tirely in favour of the separate system. We ought to have a gaol with sufficient accommo- dation to provide for the separate system being carried out thoroughly, and I am certaju our gnol as it is at present is not calculated to attain that object; but as Far as I have gathered from any own observation, and from hearing the views of other persons, my opinion is against the removal of the gaol from the present site, if by any reasonable exponse sufficient cells could be added to carry out the separate system. As to the present building, I have been given to understand that when the cells on the basement now being made are completed, and the cells on the upper corridor ¦ divided-I am subject to correction if I am stating what is inaccurate-370 cells could be provided, and with an additional wing from 500 lo 600 could be made. I am of opinion that that number of cells would be ample for years to come, as from the number of prisoners in gaol¦ you have always to deduct the number of those who are employed in various offless about the prison, such as shoemakers, tailors, and those who undertake menial offices. It would not be necessary to put them in separate cells. Then those who are committed for non-payment of fines, for seven days or three days, would noi uced to be placed in separate cells. Taking all these together, my impression is that at all times you would have some eighty or one hundred to be deducted. For the remainder, therefore, from 500 to 600 separate cells ought to be quite onongh. I would also respectfully submit that while we all believe the population will increase, when we get the separate system the ratio of the increase of crime to the popalation will be a ruti o of decrease as compared with the increase of the population.
Hon. T. C. HAYLAR-I may be permitted to say one or two words on subject which I bave had at various times under my own consideration, and that is, as to the relief of the gaol by means which really permit people to be at liberty who oaght to be in gaol. Now there is a system in force here which has a double aspect, and that is the system which is generally known as the de- portation system. Worked within certain limits and according to definite rules which have been. laid down on more than one occasion in dex- patches from home, and by the Governor hine- self, I think there can be no doubt it may work a great deal of good; but if it is worked, as I be. lieve it has been, simply for the purpose of ro lieving the gaol from persons who ought to be there, I am of opinion it works unmitigated mischief. Various inquiries have been made at different times as to what becomes of people deported. If a man is a mere rogne and vagabond wandering about this Colony with no evidence against him to prove that he is a criminal although there is a commonsense presumption that he is a nian who cannot be doing any good and may be doing a great deal of harm, if such a man could be deported no one could be deny that that would be doing the Colony a great deal of service; but if there is evidence against a man showing that he is a person who ought to be locked up, and ought not to be abroad, and it is only for the pur. pose of emptying the gaol that he is sent away, it is throwing a great burden upon the tax- payers because it must increase the work and responsibility of the police in looking after a man who ought to be locked up. Besides, there is this to be said, who knows what becomes of these people? It is a question I have inquired into many times. There seenis to be an impression that they go away. When there is a system of emigration going on, as there was a short time ago to Cooktown, & good nany of them do go away; but if they go only to the other side of the water and crowd all the vil lages in immediate contiguity to our Colony they must be a source of continusi annoyance if not of ¦ danger. They are people who have been in gaol, they have learned all the bad that can be learned, and that is an element that strongly increases the danger from these people. Looking, there- : fore, at the subject from that particular aspoot,
I think we must all have in view in con- sidering the question of the enlargement of the gaol, that we cannot get rid of the criminals by any tour de force. It seems to me that the transportation scheme is a scheme that we must treat as being definitely abandoned. We have therefore to fall back entirely upon what is open to us, namely, the schemo of keep- ing people in gaol. I Diost entirely coincido with what fell from the hon. member who spoke last as to the imperative necessity of having the separate system. I think it is the opinion of all the officers in this Colony acquainted with the subject that that system is absolutely essential. Bal apart from that opinion I would still be- love that the association system is in itself a most unmitigated evil. Lord Carnarvon, in a despatch your Excellency read to us, said there were special reasons for the adoption of the separate system among Chinese pri. soners. One need not to inore than allude to those reasons. It is perfectly obvious that the results of association must be bad. But quite apart from its relation to the Chinese there are ather reasons why that system should not be continued. In the first place I considerand 1 beliove it is generally held that the association system renders the discipline of the gaol almost) nugatory, and that it throws on the officer in charge of the gael work which he has the great. est difficulty in fulfilling. He gets two or three desperate spirits mingling with the others who are capable of stirring up an amount of mischief which under the separate system is impossible. Again, there is the danger of associating with desperate and hardened characters those who have just embarkod upon a career of crime. The chances are where you get hardened criminals mixing with younger offenders that the younger are turned out as bad as those they have been mingling with. But apart from the question of! discipline, and apart from the danger of training up younger criminals, there is this, that I nty- self do not believe, as long as there is the asso- olation system, the gaol forms much of a punish- ment. If men are allowed to mingle with each other and chat and talk, nearly all the terrors of the gol must be removed. As I understand the question, where the discipline of the guol coates in is where the prisoner is compelled to work, as a man must work if he is confined in a cell by himself but where they can loaf away the time with plenty of food and association that they appreciate, nine-tenths of the terror of gucl must be
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separate system comes into force it would necessarily, I take it. involve an extension of the gaol, but how far, is: another question. There are always a large number of prisoners employed in necessary of. fices about the gaol; then it is possible such a very large extension of the gaol need not take place as was suggested by the hon. member who j spoke last. On the other hand, as to what should be done for the extension of the gaol, there is a consideration 1 should like to point out to your Excellency on which an inquiry could very properly be made, and that is whether such a large gaol such as ours ought properly to be placed in the midst of a crowded town? I am informed all medical men think that is very much opposed to the best principles in reference to the placing of gaols in tropical climates. A gaul may be, and very often is. a centre of disease, and the question of conservancy of health is of great importance in a place like this. If the gaul has to be altered, I think that is a question that ought not to be lost sight of. The impor- tant question, however, is the financial one, and an inquiry might very properly he made as to what the value of our present gaol property is. what it could be sold for, and what it would really cost in the long run to remove the gaal altogether. Of course I agree with the bon. gen- fleman who spoke last that in years to come the increase of criminals would not be so great in proportion to the increase of the populatiou. However, a question of this kind, involving a large sum of money, should be settled once for all. It is a financial question, as to what in the long ru would be the cheapest for the Colony. It is possible we might alter our prescut gaol to meet our present require. ments; but may impression is that if the gaol has to be increased the cheapest plan would be to remove it on to Government land whore. if ex- tensions became necessary they could be made, and, one might reasonably hope, by the pri souers themselves, When in Ireland I visited a gaol, Maryborough, where not one single pound had been spout for labour except in the bringing of material, everything being done by the prisoners themselves. They had
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